Talk:Building Flourish
"Using Building Flourish will not give a weapon skill the ability to perform a critical hit if it is not already able to do so. That is, using three Finishing Moves will increase the critical hit rate of Evisceration but will have no effect on Dancing Edge over the use of two Finishing Moves. " Where did you get this? Any physical hit on a weapon skill can crit with the normal crit rate. It doesn't have to say "Critical varies with TP" to get critical hits. That's a *bonus* not a replacement. If Sneak Attack (which grants a sure critical) increases the damage over not using it (The WS page implies it does by saying "Stacks with sneak attack") then it can get criticals. This seems to be a popular view though so if someone wants to explain to me how this was proven, please do so. Tahngarthortalk- 16:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Weaponskills that don't say "Chance of critical varies with TP" will not naturally crit. They can be forced to crit via means such as Mighty Strikes and Sneak Attack, however. The variance you see on weapon skills is the natural pDif variation. Whether Building Flourish can cause normal weaponskills to critical, however, is still a mystery. I think perhaps it was a bad example? Maybe they meant "Gust Slash" and not "Dancing Edge". Unless I'm wrong, elemental WS cannot critical. -- 18:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC) That's right, but it's not the first time I've heard this. A few people say you can't get criticals on any weapon skill's hits if it doesnt say "Chance of critical varies with TP" and I'm quite sure that's not true. If it were, sneak attack + Spirit Taker, for example, would not do more damage than Spirit Taker alone. (because sneak attack on subjob only guarantees a critical, it does not do any bonus damage like it does with Thief as main job)Tahngarthortalk- 22:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Of course Weapon skills can critical if they don't say it, great examples are Penta thrust, Guillotine, and Gekko... None of them say crit varies, but can all crit, which is seen by some pretty oustanding damage (Gekko actually breaking 1k without sneak) I don't know who came up with this idea, but it sounds pretty out there Rinnsi Rinnsi :That's probably because of Double Attack proc. An easy way to test if Tachi: Gekko (For example) crits, is to go SAM/THF (for example) and try it on low level monsters. First, test a "SA" Gekko to see how much damage it does. Now don't use Sneak Attack anymore and keep using Gekko to see if it crits or not. Since the minimum chance to critical is 5%, testing out 20 Gekkos to see if it crits or not is a good way to test it. Remember NOT to have any Double or Triple Attack. Petco 16:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC) : Also "Sneak Attack" is a "forced" critical, it'll make any physical weapon skill critical regardless whether or not it can "naturally" critical. If you don't believe that only weapon skills with "Chance to Critical" are the only WS that can critical "naturally", then try the above method to test to check it. Also remember to not have Double or Triple Attack when performing the tests. Petco 16:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC) For now I will replace the example with one which is true (a magical weapon skill). If someone can substantiate the existing claim with some very solid evidence here we can change it back. Tahngarthortalk- 17:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC) There was actually quite a bit of research done on whether WS can crit unless they say so and Sneak Attack is a FORCED CRITIAL, so it doesn't count. This is whether weapon skills can critical on their own. I believe you can find the thread on Allakazahm someplace, if anyone could post the exact link to the research that would be great. They did extensive testing on specifically Asuran Fists and found that it could not critical. The same is true for WS like Dancing Edge, that are accuracy based. They found if you get a large jump in damage it is most likely a Triple Attack, Double Attack, or otherwise, NOT a critical hit. Of course this applies to Gust Slash as well, so I guess its still a valid entry, but it seemed strange to me. I will try to find the link... -Nemye 10:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC) "You can also use Building Flourish twice to increase the effect. Due to its duration." I tested this rigorously and found this to be untrue. A second application seems to overwrite the first, not augment it. Can anyone provide evidence that a second application does, in fact, augment? - Dawnfairy 10:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC) :Tested this again today for several hours with the same results. I am virtually certain that multiple applications of Building Flourish simply overwrite rather than stack. I'm going to remove this information from the page until someone can provide evidence to the contrary. - Dawnfairy 04:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC) @Dawnfairy: I too tried this many times, after seeing it said here that it stacks, and I have never seen the effect stack. I managed to use it 4 times (each consuming 2-3 finishing steps), and never saw any difference from when I would only use it once. --Gamesoul Master 08:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC) :Thanks for the confirmation. Dawnfairy 09:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC) Well on what have you tested it? if it were on EP-- or TW mobs, I don't think a boost on attack will change your damage output at all. That said, for now I'll just assume it doesn't stack until I have time to perform test myself or get confirmation on which mobs you actually tested this. --Delarius 23:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC) :Tests were performed extensively on EM mobs and higher. It's been a while, but tests were performed on Greater Colibri, Sea Puks, Steelshells, and Grauberg Hippogryphs, as well as other weaker mobs. Feel free to go and test yourself, but it appears as if a new Building Flourish replaces the existing instance of the effect. I have never had any reason to suspect, either in testing or in actual play, that Building Flourish stacks with itself. --Dawnfairy 00:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Criticals I know weaponskills can not critical without outside help aside from weaponskills that say that the crit rate varies with tp but is there any tests to show that the critical hit buff from Building Flourish is or is not a buff that can cause any weaponskill to critical? We know Sneak Attack and Mighty Strikes can do it and maybe Building Flourish has this chance as well. I've done a few tests myself and so far, I've yet to get a critical hit but I don't have a huge sample size so I can't say for sure but it seems like it does not allow normal weaponskills to critical. KonigBerserk 05:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC) *Probably the best way to test this is to use Viper Bite on starter town enemies. Viper Bite is double damage, not a twofold attack, so a critical hit should pretty noticable. Hitting those enemies should ensure fSTR and pDIF is capped out too, somewhat minimizing the effect of those variables. If you work out the numbers and find VB's maximum damage in that circumstance, any higher damage than that could reasonably be concluded to be a critical caused by Building Flourish. I have seen a whole page here of nothing but debating on Critical or not.The real question i was hoping to see answered here was is this even viable using up 5 moves to get what i have seen so far as no improvement at all. Using both Wild and Building ,i am only getting a Viper Bite of usually right around 300 + or -10,hardly seems useful.I could just replenish those 5 ticks and get another WS up sooner,likely around close to that same 300.Not to mention the time wasted performing those added moves.--Zaksame (talk) 04:19, June 29, 2015 (UTC)